A video tour of the deplorable state of my kitchen/dining room, what I hope to accomplish with a renovation, and how much I hope it will cost:
I just got an estimate for the pipework--undoubtedly the most expensive of the tasks--for $13,500. More than I hoped for, but less than I'd feared. I'm pretty sure I'm going to do it; it would remove the pipes throughout the apartment, which are the worst feature of the place. I priced the new cabinets (Ikea, naturally) at $900. I could install them myself (because there's really only three: the dishwasher cabinet, the tiny cabs to the left of the stove, and the tall cabinet next to the fridge.) I'd pay to have the sink installed and the new counter--I'm guessing the total price would be about $1000 for that. The dishwasher and new range are kind of a wildcard--I could spend a lot ($2000), or almost nothing (maybe $200 buying used). The price to knock out the walls would be, I'm guessing, $1000. Lighting and adding a few electrical sockets, add in another $1000. Add in miscellaneous supplies like paint and wall patch for projects I'm doing myself ($250?), and the total comes to $18,000-20,000.
There are other things I'd like to do sooner rather than later. I'd like to repair my fireplace ($2-3,000); the woodwork needs a lot of attention and there's painting to be done. Eventually, I'd like to spruce up the bathroom a bit ($2000?) and improve my lighting throughout (another $2000?) It feels weird to me that when all is said and done, I will have spent about as much fixing my place up as I spent purchasing it in the first place ($42,000), but the rational part of me remembers that that is an irrelevant consideration.
What do you guys think? Any advice for me?
Some comments on your re-do plans: I like the pipes - they are very *in* for lofts so why not for basements? You can paint them another color or whatever but they add character.
ReplyDeleteConsumer Reports says butcher block counters which are very expensive and fragile are not as good as various stone/fake stone or other counters. They did a whole issue on kitchen makeovers a few months ago. You could have one small counter butcher block and actually use it as a cutting board.
Do you feel secure in your apartment now with garage entry and security system? If so, staying put for a while seems a good idea.
Hmmm... if I were in a loft, I'd agree with you, but I'm in a vintage co-op. My unit is definitely "shabby chic" in its vibe, but the pipes just look plain shabby.
ReplyDeleteInteresting comment re: the counters. I'll have to scare up that Consumer Reports article. One reason I was thinking butcher block is that it is actually considerably cheaper than granite/corian/silstone. It's true that it is fussier at first: you have to oil it every week for the first few months, but after that, you just have to oil it every few months. And if you get a scratch or it is somehow damaged, you just sand it and it is as good as new. With granite, if it breaks (and it does break, though it isn't common) then that's it. New counter. Frankly, I'm also just tired of the granite/stone look. My ambition when remodeling is to ask myself, "Would I have liked this ten years ago?" And if the answer is "yes" then I know I'll still like it in ten years. With the heavy granite look, the answer for ten years ago was definitely "no." With marble or quartz, I would have loved it ten years ago--but there's no way I can afford those, so I thought butcher block was a classic compromise.
As for security, alas, I no longer have a garage spot. But I do have the security system, along with a "I've fallen (been mugged) and I can't get up!) button that reaches out as far as I ever park. And I bought a taser, though I haven't activated it. So, in short, yeah, I feel perfectly secure here, which has taken most of the urgency out of my sense of wanting to leave.
Momcat, you've got me staring harder at my pipes. What do the rest of you think? It's true that they're extremely ugly right now, but that is at least in part because they are peeling and different colors. If I sanded them well and repainted them all a uniform white, what would you think?
ReplyDeleteCan you really do anything with the pipes? Aren't they part of you building plumbing not just yours? What about instead putting in a drop down ceiling? If you know out the walls the lowered ceiling shouldn't fee too squishy and you could maybe add a center island with a hanging thing for pot and pans.
ReplyDeleteAnd, why did you loose your garage spot?
Uncle Sam, Roothy was planning on putting in a lowered ceiling but that was what was going to cost big bucks. The pipes fit in with "shabby chic" very well and really add character. It also means you don't have a lower ceiling which is not chic. You could go crazy with the paint job, or go with white. Either way I really like the pipes!
ReplyDeleteThe pipes can be moved to the edges of the room and boxed in with "soffits." Alternatively, they can be moved up a little bit, and then a new ceiling get put in without losing too much of my height. Fortunately, I am starting with 9 1/2 foot ceilings, so dropping them to 9 feet is still very respectable. The advantage of dropping the ceiling is that I can also add in lots and lots of recessed lighting--currently, the lighting in my unit is quite bad.
ReplyDeleteI have now asked several people their opinion of the pipes, and all have urged me to get rid of them. I quote one such critic: "Your kitchen is asking to be put out of its misery; preferably in a violent way,Death-by-Cop. That's not shabby-chic, that's slumlord-standard." I have to say, the pipes really are terrible. But I am loathe to lose much (if any) ceiling; being in the basement, I need as much light as I can get.
I unfortunately don't have room for an island, even after knocking out a wall (it's complicated).
Anyway, I just had a contractor come in and do lots of measurements. I am getting more and more nervous about my wallet....
Oh, and the garage spot was sold along with the unit it came with. I only got to rent it because the family who owned it had already moved out and the unit was empty, waiting for a buyer. The buyer came along and was not interested in selling me his garage spot. Which I'm kind of glad about, because the spot would have been $20-25,000, PLUS $170 a month in taxes/assessment. Parking on the street is free and plentiful outside of business hours, though I have to do serious shoveling a few times a year. And now that I have all my security equipment, I no longer feel unsafe traveling from my car to my unit.
ReplyDeleteLoose the pipes and I like the idea of recessed lighting. That will help with the lowered ceiling. Pipes can be cool but your aren't:(
ReplyDeleteAgreed--they can be cool, but generally only in a hip loft. I haven't gotten the latest quote from this contractor; my stomach tightens at what he's going to come back at me with. How much is the most you would spend, if you were me? Right now, my best guess at the market value of this unit is $80,000. But I really don't entirely know... I bought it for $42,000 in January of 1997. Since then, I've improved all the floors (removing carpet to expose hard wood; adding the slate floor in the kitchen) and painted. I have put in new electric and the alarm system; also put in new windows (they were cheap, though). I put in ceiling fans, and a tiny bit of other cosmetic work.
ReplyDeleteYou have lived in this place a long time...probably longer than you intended to when you bought it. Everyone seems to think of their home as an "investment" but it's your HOME first. Getting this kitchen the way you want it will make your HOME more comfortable for you. And, unless you do something really funky, you can't help but increase it's resale value.
ReplyDeleteNow about the pipes: we have had the pipes replaced in both our homes, at a price of about $8000. (Most homes around here were built in the seventies with galvanized steel, which seemed like a great idea at the time, but plumbers aren't chemists, and they didn't realize that the electrolysis that occurred when they were hooked up to copper city pipes would destroy the plumbing.) You might want to get other quotes before you go with $13K...is there a reason it's so high, like difficult access or something? Will you be getting nice new copper piping throughout, or are they just going to patch in pipes to move them over to the wall? If the pipes are in good shape, maybe it would be cheaper to do just that.
If you drop the ceiling from 9.5 to 9 feet, does that mean you don't have to move the pipes? Maybe you could test how it feels to lose that 1/2 foot by tacking up a sheet or cardboard or something, and see if it really does make the room feel claustrophobic, or if it matters at all. Maybe you'd see that disguising the pipes with some sort of cloth draping would work.
I had tile counter-tops in the other house. They were OK, but if you set a plate down just a touch too hard, you'd break it. I have always liked plain old light colored formica. You can't beat it for price and durability.
I think your sink looks fine. I prefer a stainless steel sink...easy to keep looking nice, and won't break your dishes if you set them down too hard. (Really, it wasn't me breaking all the dishes, it was the ex.) Why are you changing it? Just putting in a new faucet is cheap and easy. I installed both mine and UncleSam's.
I strongly suggest looking carefully at Consumer Reports when deciding which kitchen appliances to get. The most expensive is not always the better choice.
I also strongly suggest re-thinking not having an overhead exhaust for your stove. It's probably required, and it's definitely advisable.
Thanks, Chip--all very good comments. Yep, never intended to stay here this long. And you are right that my improvements will increase the value of the place; my guess is by 80% of their cost. But no matter what I do to it, it is still an English basement, so I can't increase its value ad infinitum.
ReplyDeleteI have been scouring Consumer Reports and ConsumerSearch.com--both very helpful. I've decided to buy a hood and sink from overstock.com (I want an undermount; thus the replacement), a faucet from either overstock or costco (whichever is cheaper), and a range, dishwasher and microwave from Ikea. Dishwashers are all the same, as are microwaves. Ranges vary a lot, but the Ikea is a rebranded lower-end Italian one that is well-received.
If I buy three major appliances from Ikea, then I get 20% off the entire price of the kitchen (such as cabinets. I could get laminate countertops from Ikea, but I've always had extraordinarily BAD luck with Formica. It always peels on me; hate it. I'm now settling on the engineered stone that Consumer Reports likes; hopefully I can get it cheaply.
I've priced all the "stuff" (appliances, cabinets, counter, sink/faucet, etc.) and it should come to... ugh.. about $6500.
The labor? I have no idea. I'm having the pipe guys come back to give me a different quote for just moving the pipes up so that they are within half a foot of the ceiling (rather than their current 2+ feet from the ceiling in some spots). The pipes will indeed be replaced with copper: they are circa 1920's cast iron. I'm hoping the price will indeed be closer to the $8000 price than to the $13500 price, given the revision in plans.
But the cost to install all the "stuff," building the ceiling, add lighting, tear out the walls, etc.? I can't imagine it will cost less than $10,000.
All told, this means a price for a new kitchen (and new ceilings throughout the house with no pipes and recessed lighting): about $25,000.
I did a more rigorous estimate of the value of my unit. Given the improvements I've already put in, I probably have a cost basis of $60,000 (that is, $18,000 in improvements over the $42,000 purchase price). At 4% per year appreciation since 1997 (4% is probably too much, but not crazy given it is a gentrifying college neighborhood), that puts the value of the unit at about $96,000. Another way of estimating price: our building has a slightly larger 2/1 garden unit on the other side of the building, with a new (low-end) kitchen and electric but with the pipes showing, which we just managed to rent for $1200 a month. Assuming I could rent mine for the same, using standard rent-vs-buy estimates, that would make for a sale price of $120,000 to $180,000. That's a huge spread; being conservative, say my place is actually worth $110,000.
Looking at it that way, $25,000 seems pretty reasonable.
Sorry to be boring! But I like planning and crunching numbers.
I wish you would paint your pipes and see how they look then. I REALLY like them and think you might be sorry if you pay a lot of money to move or cover them and then wish you hadn't.
ReplyDeleteWell, I am getting lots of opinions from others (friends even coming over tomorrow to give their advice). So far about 10 people have said that I MUST get rid of the pipes; only you say to keep them! Some pipes do look cool, as Uncle Sam says. Unfortunately, these really, really do not. They also interfere with my ceiling fan and make my lighting odd. The more I think about it, the more I want to get rid of them--sorry, Momcat! But thanks for trying to save me money!
ReplyDeleteIf it makes Momcat feel better, say you're replacing the aging pipes to improve your water pressure.
ReplyDeleteMomcat, you win! I just had some friends over to inspect the place, and they agreed that the pipes should STAY. They think they're kind of cool for one, but on top of that, they pointed out that you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
ReplyDeleteThey also thought I could do a lot of the work myself, or at least work as my own general contractor, hiring out workers on an as-needed basis. And I actually do think that is right. So, that's what I'm going to do: hire a stuctural engineer to make sure the walls I want to knock out are not support walls, then knock out the walls and frame up a door I want to seal off myself, then tear out the cabinets myself, then a plumber to put new PVC pipes under my sink and extend my gasline to next to my window, then hire dry wallers to fix up what's left behind, then paint everything (including pipes), then hire an electrician to add a couple of sockets and put up lighting, then put in the cabinets myself with the help of a friend, then have the counter put in.
Voila, new kitchen. At a cost of closer to $7-8000, rather than $25,000. The end result will not be as clean, but it will be a vast improvement.